Forged in Battle 15mm 8th Army Infantry

I've now (mostly) finished the infantry company for my 8th Army in the Western Desert project. I do have some Vickers MMG teams and 3" mortars, as well as a couple stands of Boys AT rifles and 2" mortars, yet to complete but I wanted to post these models up.

 

The great majority of the models are from Forged in Battle, a UK manufacturer you might know better as West Wind - why the name change I'm not sure. I say "the great majority" because a couple Peter Pig models have snuck into the company (the pistol-armed platoon commanders). More on this later.

 

You'll notice that the models are based for Flames of War... so you might well wonder why I didn't just use Battlefront infantry. I sure would have liked to do that - but they are unavailable. From anywhere. I even emailed BF directly to ask when they would be back, and I was told that there were no plans but my request would be "passed on to the production team." Take that for what you will, but my experience with BF is that they're a hot mess.

 

There are a couple other options for 15mm 8th Army infantry - Peter Pig, Command Decision - but I chose FiB because the painted models on their website looked absolutely gorgeous. I was happy to paint these models, I think they look pretty great, but while it came good in the end, getting this order from FiB wasn't exactly straightforward.

I put in a large order of both British and Germans - a large infantry "platoon pack", a pack of MMGs, a pack of mortars, and a pack of two AT guns, for each side. The FiB shipping caluclator led me to a workaround as adding one more pack doubled the shipping... so I ordered one pack of AT guns as a separate order. That's additional hassle for the retailer for sure but a poor customer experience when the shipping doubles by adding one pack of models. Anyway...

  

The models arrived in "reasonable time" (I followed up with them once IIRC) and while many of the castings looked quite nice (including these 8th Army infantry) some of the castings were absolutely appalling (the German infantry and MMGs). I did communicate this back to FiB and their representative was very apologetic (apparently the molds were worn out and due for replacement). She offered to replace the bad castings and I heartily accepted that offer.

I also requested some missing poses from the British MMG packs (I only received one gunner figure for the four MGs) and the reply was somewhat puzzling... basically I was told that packs contained a random assortment of models. I get that in an infantry pack you might not get identical numbers of every pose (I didn't), but surely you need to include four actual gunner models in a four-machinegun pack!

In due course the replacement Germans arrived but FiB had forgotten to send the machinegunners. They eventually did send them but from start to finish the order took several months.

ANYWAY... I really like the British infantry (with a couple exceptions - the Thompson sub-machinegun carried by the NCO (photo below) is terrible-looking, and the Christ-like officer (all he's missing is a cross) is just strange and was left unpainted - hence the Piggie replacements. However the rest of the infantry models are all quite good, the equipment looks great, and the poses are all really useful. There are three prone Bren-gunners and number twos included, plus a prone Boys AT team and 2" mortar team. All really good stuff. 

Painting: helmet and uniforms AK Light Earth, washed Agrax and re-highlighted. Flesh Doombull Brown highlighted Cadian Flesh, socks Steel Legion Drab, rifles Leadbelcher, AK brown, highlighted New Wood. The webbing was left LE with the Agrax wash and the contrast obtained by highlighting the uniform around it, if that makes sense. Rifle slings are Deck Tan which I may tone down a bit as it's pretty light. For the groundwork I mixed Medium Brown into the basing gel and wet-brushed it up with AK Khaki and finished with a Deck Tan drybrush.

So my goal now is to get the rest of the infantry painted in the next month, with a target of having a game on Thanksgiving weekend. I'll keep you posted on progress. As for Forged in Battle... well it was an experience. The models I got were pretty nice but it took a lot of effort to get them - something I'm not really used to as a customer of an established business. The FiB representative was very friendly, responsive and accommodating of requests but honestly, most of the requests shouldn't have had to have been made in the first place. Worn out molds should be identified and replaced before miscast figures are sent to customers, and packs of special weapons should contain all the figures needed to crew them. Thankfully it all worked out in the end.

Toodles!

More Sons of Prospero

For Prospero! Another XV Legion Astartes tactical squad is ready to move out. 

We are in the final weeks of summer, and it is time to show some results from the painting desk, including a project that started, um, last winter...you know, sometimes, how a specific painting effort just sort of dribbles along...well, here is one such effort, from GW's Horus Heresy setting (no surprise there). This is a brand new, 20-man tactical squad for the XV Legion Astartes, the Thousand Sons. These are multipart Mk III armoured plastic kits from GW's newer "Age of Darkness" range, sporting custom resin heads and embossed shoulder pads. 

A couple of the "regular" grunts. Love those whacky proto-space-Egyptian helmets!

The "newer" plastic Mark III armoured kits are, well, not that new any longer, but still seem relatively new to a grognard like me. I was a huge fan of the previous generation of Mk III plastic Space Marines and the newer ones, while nice - and admittedly better-proportioned - still didn't quite have the full "space-baroque charm" of those previous sculpts. Plus, they featured the divisive spiked helmet...anyway, see here for more on all that. 

Another view of some of the regular chaps. I also find that I love the chunky bolt guns that come with the newer Mk III plastic kits. 

At any rate, the point in this post is not to revisit that, but I did wonder late last year if perhaps a blend of the newer plastic Mk III kits and the older, custom Legion heads might look cool in the instance of the Thousand Sons? I had seen some examples online, and it looked...kind of sharp! Given that I had been looking build up my XV Legion collection, I thought a second large, full-on 20-man tactical squad might be the way to go...

Vox trooper and vexillary on hand to support their fellows. 

And it turned out pretty good, at least in my biased opinion. The old custom Forge World helmets don't have the best fit with the newer plastics - the "neck" recess on these plastics is much deeper than previous, so it takes a little careful adjusting to make sure the helmet sits. But it still comes together nicely! I painted these fellows in singles and in pairs through the spring and summer - so it took forever - and then I procrastinated on getting the photos, then finally getting the post done etc. etc....but here they are at last!

The Sergeant got to keep his "regular" combed helmet! As is proper, he also has some scrolls - and a grenade - because 30k.

You might also note that I left the unit's Sergeant with the original head from the new plastic kits...and it turned out alright! Of course, his helmet sports a comb and not a spike, but this has emboldened me to experiment further with these newer plastic Mk III kits - if not for this Legion, then another one.

I do like this fellow taking aim...

As ever, I continue to stick to the non-metallic red for this project. As nice as it might be to find some way to achieve that metallic red look, I do like this matte finished red/gold/white combo as well. The custom Thousand Sons bits really help them "pop" on the table as well. 

A great many Horus Heresy enthusiasts love the assorted specialized units to be found among the army lists, but for me, the very best Horus Heresy gaming is to be found when huge 20-man tactical squads march across the battlefield and bash each other to bits! Good times! My XV Legion Astartes is now in a much stronger position to pursue this strategy, as these fellows will join a similar-sized "beakie" squad painted in a previous Analogue Hobbies Painting Challenge. 

One last group photo...

Will bashing away with huge tactical squads still be fun in the 3.0 version of the "Age of Darkness" game? That remains to be seen - I'm still awaiting my first game using the new version of the rules, and I haven't even yet tortured myself in trying to understand the new variations on the Thousand Sons' legion-specific rules. I do know that a chunk of my version 2.0 force will not be fully "valid" due to the changes in how Veteran Tactical Squads are configured - but having this second huge tactical squad handy will more than cover that "gap". As ever, the real pressure continues to be a dire lack of vehicles...might be something I will look to address during (when else?) the next Analogue Hobbies Painting Challenge!

At Last, a Yom Kippur War Game!

After some months of collecting and painting my own Egyptian and Israeli forces for the 1973 Yom Kippur War, I'm finally hosting a game*, set in the Sinai during the latter part of the war. The Israelis have crossed the Suez and are wreaking some havoc in the rear areas of the Egyptian army, basically trying to do all they can before the inevitable ceasefire.

I've set up a pretty straightforward three-objective game: the objectives being the SA-2 Guideline SAM at bottom, the house at centre, and the well in the courtyard at top. The Egyptians start with an infantry section and ISU-152 near the SAM but otherwise the forces start off-table. We used Bolt Action 3rd Ed for the game, leaving the movement and weapons ranges the same despite the models being 15mm rather than 28mm. I think it looks cooler that way.

  

The SAM with attendant infantry and SP howitzer.

The Israelis had four infantry squads in M3 halftracks, two weapons sections and the command squad in a fifth halftrack, three M51 Ishermans and four Magach-6 tanks. They faced three Egyptian infantry sections, two DShK HMG teams, two AT-3 Sagger ATGW teams, three T-62s and five T-55 tanks.

Egyptian infantry rushes towards the centre objective.

Conscript Mike picking out reinforcements coming on-table while Conscript Dave surveys the landscape.

Two Magach-6s and more infantry reinforce the attack on the SAM position.

DShK teams move up to join the infantry in the centre while Egyptian tanks sweep to the left to support the SAM position.

IDF infantry deploys in the wadi and open up on the Egyptian infantry.

 

Meanwhile, the Egyptian infantry occupies the objective and the DShK teams deploy in support.

Around the SAM position the original Egyptian infantry section was wiped out but a reinforcing section arrives from reserve.

Having taken the far objective (well) the IDF sweeps towards the centre. The Egyptians were all set to unload on the advancing IDF infantry but they were hosed off with supporting fire. Nice coordination!

IDF infantry rushes the ground floor of the building. This is where they'd end the game.

Over on the Israeli left the IDF infantry have taken the well objective with the heavy weapons sections and command squad. Their FN MAGs, light mortars and Blindicide rocket launchers have reached out and touched some Egyptian assets but have taken a few pins and casualties as well.

On the other flank the Israeli assault has kind of stalled - the infantry in the wadi were cut up by the Egyptian infantry that's now close enough to control the SAM objective. After much discussion the Israelis decided not to send their infantry up - they'd end up too far away to contest the objective before the end of the game. 

The M51 Ishermans pounded away at the opposing T-62 and succeeded in immobilizing it.

Egyptian tanks sweep around the centre objective and knock out a distant Magach-6.

Takeaways: it was a really good looking game (IMHO) but maybe a bit on the big side for a Thursday Bolt Action scrap, there were 14 or 15 order dice per side which is a lot for us. After the first turn I decided to allow activation of a tank TROOP on one dice which sped things up a bit. 

There weren't as many burning tanks as I would have liked to see either. I'd based the BA stats on relative gun/armour stats for the models in Fate of a Nation, the Flames of War Arab-Israeli wargame. The 115mm guns of the Egyptians were penetration 8+, the 100mm and 105mm guns, and Saggers, were penetration 7+, the Blindicides and RPG-7s were penetration 5+. As for armour I rated the Shermans as Medium tanks (9+), T-55s and T-62s as Heavy tanks (10+), and the Magach-6s as 11+ armour. So an AT-3 (if it hit) would glance a Sherman on a 2 and penetrate on 3+, or glance a Magach-6 on a 4 and penetrate on a 5+, all from the front. Comments welcome.

All in all a fun time and I think for the next one I might turn up the AT weapons a bit and make the game a bit smaller. But this one was fun and looked great.

Shalom and yo'um said!    
 

*of course Conscript Greg has an amazing collection of YKW stuff and has staged many games, including our Prairiecon game that made it into Wargames Illustrated! But this was the first YKW game staged with the models all painted by me :-) 

Age of Darkness 3.0 - The Slow 40k-ification of the Horus Heresy

Following a months-long online marketing campaign, featuring some cheeky levity at the outset and clouds of "leaks" - the officially arranged sort and the incidental sort - the brand new "Saturnine" edition of the Horus Heresy rules has arrived - and by "arrived", I mean, has arrived outside the bubble of GW's studio and its small ecosystem of connected fellow travellers and irritating online "hobby influencers". The new box set and rule books are now circulating in the hands of actual people who play the game and love the setting, but don't do it for a living :) 

This post is...well, it's late! I don't move in hobby-influencer circles, and nobody at GW is worried about what I think to the extent that they would send me stuff in advance, right? 

Come on GW...I'm biddable!

Anyway, even though I'm late, I want to share my thoughts on the new edition - the rules, the lists, the models...all from the humble perspective of who someone who has loved the setting for decades, even if I haven't loved all the rules that have come with it.  

But for this first post, I wanted to reflect on an aspect that is not found in the box set or the new books at all - at least not directly - but rather take a look at the quite bumpy run-up to the launch of the new edition last month. At one level, it was just "a bunch of online grousing" and "people always hate change" etc, sure, but I think it was more than that, and worth a look....

The Bumpy Run Up

I'm not certain the rollout of the new edition went quite the way GW hoped. It is hard to tell - the signal to noise ratio of GW's official marketing communications to players is always set for confusion. Certainly it is difficult to credit the things GW says about its own products or intentions in these circumstances with any good faith.  

The anxiety in the 30k community was palpable during the run up to the release, and as the leaks started to reveal that certain units had vanished (like Destroyers) and that a variety of wargear combos were no more, the anxiety and nerd anger really built. Because the whole pre-launch marketing effort was leak-driven, GW's efforts to manage this online concern (to extent they even tried) were, at best, clunky. It was hard to tell if these removals were a false rumor, a mistaken leak, part of GW's tongue-in-cheek "Horus Hearsay" effort, were part of a plan to shape the new rules and adjust the model range, or simply errors due to incompetence (like the "no power fists for Tartaros Terminators" fiasco). The vibe online really felt negative, and long-time fans feared treasured units, carefully converted character figures or even big parts of their collections were about to be nerfed into oblivion. 

To the extent GW appeared to acknowledge any concerns by actual players during this period, it was to assure everyone there would be a "Legacies of the Age of Darkness" PDF that would contain rules for all of the units and wargear combinations that were otherwise removed from the new edition. 

Like, if you were willing to do that, then why remove them in the first place? But I digress.

GW then missed the date they had promised to issue this new PDF (by, like, a couple of days or whatever, but still, this did not build confidence). There was also a slightly hilarious release of an FAQ/Errata document immediately prior to the actual formal release of the new edition - again, better that GW did this than did not, but it did not build confidence in the product or process around the product we were about to receive.

All of this before any regular gamer even had a physical copy of any new books or models...yikes, I know as geeks we have strong views (I sure do!) but even by these standards, it looked like quite the mini-mess online!

IT'S MORE NARRATIVE.

As I said above, the volume of angst was in many cases dismissed as "wargamers always hate change" and "you always hear the angriest people online"-type reactions. These are lazy "takes". The anger/concern was legit in my view. To understand it, I think it is important to back up for a moment consider the "why" of Age of Darkness 3.0 - as in, "why do they think we must have a new edition at all?" What is the studio was doing, or at least claiming it is trying to do, with this new version of the Horus Heresy rules? 

Well, we know "the answer". More money. After all, we all understand the actual reason for the new edition: it's business my friends! GW is a business, they want to stimulate and drive sales through the Horus Heresy product channel. A new edition is a sure and certain way to accomplish this. 

But the studio would never openly concede commercial motives. That's just poor form! I have seen new editions of rules appear in other games. Those writers and publishers operate for a profit, yes, but they also seek a higher purpose with newer rules editions - to capture new players, refresh and update rules processes, correct mistakes and address oversights from the previous publication. Sometimes a rules writer has been completely overtaken by whole new ideas on how to play a period/setting, and the new edition is a bold departure from the previous attempt!

GW's corporate overlords want profit, but the GW studio people...they want to assure you they, too, seek to refresh the Horus Heresy rules toward a higher purpose. This purpose? MORE NARRATIVE. This idea was at the core of the almost all of the marketing newspeak exercise of the run up to the official release of the new edition. Whatever else this game was going to be, version 3.0 was going to be "MORE NARRATIVE". You got that? This will be "NARRATIVE DRIVEN".

But...like...that can mean a lot. "MORE NARRATIVE." "NARRATIVE DRIVEN." 

So, like, in what way? 

"WELL, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE BLACK LIBRARY BOOKS." 

Ok, but...in what sense...? 

Narrative Hogwash

YOUR NARRATIVE ENJOYMENT IS NOW AUTHORIZED

There are a number of changes to the game between edition 2.0 and 3.0 of the Age of Darkness. I'll touch on some of them in later posts (and you've probably already read at least the official explanations for many of them at the generally-tolerable Warhammer Community site). But for the purposes of this initial reflection, I just make the point that the new Tactical Status, Challenge Phase, the tie to officers and slots in army selection...this is all meant to be "more narrative". So I return to the question - what do they mean by that? Is the new game that different?

You will find it has a LOT of changes, but it is still not a very different experience. Yes, I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it holds up if you just zoom out and compare the overall game structure. 

Horus Heresy 2.0 was, at its base, an IGOUGO-mediated contest between painted collections of miniatures, using forces matched via a points system, with the winner determined via the accumulation of victory points derived from varied but almost always abstract circumstances on the table. Some fairly simple rules lie at the core of the game, but they are wrapped in a thick plankton of various and sundry special rules which are used to achieve a measure of nuanced difference, creating a fairly complex gaming experience overall. 

Did the GW studio attempt any actual radical changes for 3.0? Did they bring in d10s? Did they expand the reaction options, or even blow up IGOUGO? Did they change the turn sequence? Did they do away with templates? No. Not even close.

Horus Heresy 3.0 is rather...an IGOUGO-mediated contest between painted collections of miniatures, using forces matched via a points system, with the winner determined via the accumulation of victory points derived from varied but almost always abstract circumstances on the table. Some fairly simple rules lie at the core of the game, but they are wrapped in a thick plankton of various and sundry special rules which are used to achieve a measure of nuanced difference, creating a fairly complex gaming experience overall. 

And edition 3.0 is no more "narrative driven" than any of the other editions have been. But this not mean 3.0 will be bad. I generally liked playing Horus Heresy 2.0, after all, and amid the endless small tweaks made to the rules I think Horus Heresy 3.0 will be worth a try. 

But spare me the "MORE NARRATIVE". "Narrative driven" gaming doesn't occur in the wake of rules saying they are such. The creation of the story behind a game, the belief in/engagement with that story is up to the players. The lore, the setting, the books - that all helps a great deal, of course. But I have never enjoyed a "narrative" game because a rulebook told me do, and I find it kind of funny that the GW studio thought this concept could be a marketing and design concept cornerstone for the book. 

It is also sad. 

Because it cuts to what I see as really lying at the heart of all the online angst: the 40k-ification of the Horus Heresy, and the loss of the unsaid/unwritten spirit of what had previously set 30k apart in the minds of so many players. Yeah, people are mad about losing their destroyer units (I'll miss mine) but what is really driving the frustration is the direction of travel in the studio towards the 40k-style of hobby. And that sucks. 

40K-ification of the Horus Heresy (aka "Enshittification Of Wargaming Rules)

Writer Cory Doctorow developed the idea of "enshittification" to describe the pattern of decay he sees in online platforms and services over time. I see 40k-ification as the tabletop gaming rules equivalent of "enshittifcation". 

Face it - there are a lot of reasons people love the Horus Heresy setting and Age of Darkness gaming. We love the story. We love the miniatures. But there is also a cornerstone feeling of watching the "evolution" of 40k and saying quietly "Thank God that is not happening to my game". But the sad fact is that 30k players longer this luxury. The blowup of online angst prior to the release of this edition is, to me, a recognition of this fact. 

Oh sure, you can look at Age of Darkness 3.0 and point to the many, many, many ways in which it is still different from the 40k game in important ways. But there are a great number of signs that show the direction of travel clearly. The changes made to the reaction mechanic (one of the best aspects of Horus Heresy 2.0) tilt the game towards the 40k feel. Vehicles have wounds now - wait, sorry, I guess they are still "structure points" - but they are wounds in all but name. These are small things, but they point to how the GW studio's 40k rule making tendencies have now leached into the 30k space. 

But my argument is not only tied to these specific, seemingly minor, mechanical rule changes. The whole 3.0 process itself in the clearest evidence. The turgid, almost unreadable circular language that makes reading the new rules to be an exhausting process.  The presentation of rules as "simple", when they are in fact surrounded by a galaxy of complicated special rules. The addition of very chonky new Saturnine models to the lineup carries the whiff of "Primaris" about it. 

And most of all...the release of a new edition for no real reason, full of changes that are mostly cosmetic and don't actually change the gaming experience, wrapped in a leak-led and online-influencer mediated gaslighting exercise of shouting "MORE NARRATIVE" to pretend otherwise. This, to me, is pure 40k-ification. 

As I said, I will give Age of Darkness 3.0 a try. I may even come to like it! But an era is over. The Horus Heresy game is now clearly within the sights and desires of the sorts of design types who rendered 40k into what it is today - a baffling wargaming experience, such that I cannot even pretend to follow what is happening on a 40k gaming table (other than to recognize it by the presence of a bunch of dumb circles which are generally not part of the terrain). And around it all the endless Codex Creep, the cringe-inducing "meta" chasing. Our 30k rules are not yet THAT bad, but as I said, the direction of travel is clear, and when edition 4.0 comes along in a couple of years, the 30k community will have much, much more to be concerned about, I fear...

But anyway, at least there are some totally nice new figures coming out! We'll move on to that, and some thoughts on some of the rules changes, in future posts!

Zvezda Tigers for the Western Desert and ISU-152 for the Yom Kippur War

More work done on the massive order of Zvezda 1:100/15mm armour kits that arrived last week... This time it's two Tiger I's and an Egyptian ISU-152.

These are early-production Tigers I think and perfect for the Western Desert with their Feifel air-cleaners. Pretty easy kits to assemble with only a few parts - but be careful of the fit of the turret to the top plate of the hull. There's a plastic pin that fits in a hole and on both of my kits they bound up, so when you turned the turret it just twisted the pin right off. No problem, fixed that with magnets but it took a bit of faffing about.

These will be used for Flames of War and I love having a commander poking his head out. Unfortunately the Zvezda kits don't have separate hatches so I had to cut off the cupola, stick on an elevated hatch, and resculpt the cupola with greenstuff. I ended up using a thinly-sliced roadwheel for the open hatch but I don't think it's obvious enough to notice. Looks OK to my wargamer's eye anyway.

  

So that's the two models. As for paint I used Tallarn Sand but lightened somewhat with off-white. Washed Agrax and re-highlighted of course, with sponge chipping and decals from an ancient 1/72 sheet. YES I KNOW that Tiger 141's tac numbers should be white outline only (and I think that 231's should be red/white?) but this is what I had to hand.

 

Next up is a relic from the YKW, an Egyptian ISU-152 SP gun. To me these look so cool, I had to have one for my Egyptian force. It was built from the box but I added the pintle MG from a Battlefront sprue for looks-cool-factor and to match one that I saw in the AK Arab-Israeli Wars vehicle book. 

I painted this one Tallarn Sand with camo in Deathworld Forest and a medium brown. Again, to match the vehicle in the AK book.

Lots of stuff painted now for the YKW, I feel like I should put on a game soon!

Heia Safari and youm sa'id!

More 30k in 15mm - SoH Reinforcements

Sons of Horus tactical marines wearing Mark IV armour - 3D prints in 15mm. 

More 30k-themed models have been crossing the painting desk through the summer, but I've dipped back into the 15mm project once more. Here we have a nice pile of reinforcements for the Sons of Horus - a big 20-man tactical squad and a 10-man assault squad. All are clad in Mark IV power armour. These are all 3D prints from Byron, with assorted decals sourced from various GW sets. 

Tactical Squad

Officer on the left, with customary scary pistol an scary sword; Vox-equipped trooper on the right.

No matter what scale you partake, when it comes to the Horus Heresy, these huge 20-man tactical squads are all kinds of fun. 

Closer view of a couple of the tactical troopers.

The 3D prints of the Mark IV armour really turned out nicely. The only real hiccup with these guys is the size of the integral chunk of resin at their feet...I find removing them to be fraught (as the resin can snap in funny ways) and I lack the hobby infrastructure to safely sand/grind them down, so I resorted to doing the best I could to shave them down with a hobby knife...not the smartest decision, and this was abandoned after a couple of the figures! 

Horus for hope!

Anyway, they look fine, and will be even better after I re-supply on grass tufts and can go on a little binge adding them to these figures. 

Assault Squad

Assault squad ready to jump into the action!

It's good to get the classic jump-pack craziness of the Horus Heresy going in my 15mm collection. I had actually started painting these guys...I dunno, a while ago, such that I was sure I had already put photos of them on the blog? But I couldn't find them...anyway, in the event I've doubled up, my apologies in advance...

Fancy weapons for the officer, as per usual.

Working class bolt pistols and chain swords for the rest of the lads!

I do love the look of the Mark IV armour on the jump pack-equipped assault marines, and I also like the style of the jump packs themselves, based around a single large jet - a layout that seems somewhat more sensible than the huge twin-jet set up of the classic armour packs - but for all that the Mark IV jet pack itself it still large enough to be very dangerous, and therefore "fit" properly with the setting. 

Lots of fun to work with these little castings!

So that's another 30 troops for cause of the Warmaster! I guess I'll need to do something to balance things out for the Loyalist side...stay tuned for more on that at some point later this summer...